The Sunday Interview: Survivors Speak: Christian Nationalism, Patriarchy & Doug Wilson (Pamela Brown of CNN)

Brad Onishi: Welcome to Straight White American Jesus. This is the Sunday interview. I am Brad Onishi, co-host of this show, author of American Caesar, how theocrats and tech lords are turning America into a monarchy, founder of Axis Mundi Media. Today, I interview Pamela Brown from CNN, and I'm interviewing her because she has led the efforts to create a documentary coming out in one week about Christian nationalism, Doug Wilson, Reformed churches across the country, and the rise to power and the mainstreaming of a very radical form of American Protestantism.

We talk about what it was like to interact with those who are part of CREC aligned churches—that is the denomination that Wilson helped to found—what it was like to interview Wilson himself and to visit Moscow, Idaho, and most importantly, in my view, to talk to survivors who were willing to come on camera and to tell the world about their abuse, about their experiences and what they've learned and what they would like us to know since leaving those communities.

I want to say a couple things beforehand, and then we'll get to the interview. One is the person who, in my mind, has really done the groundbreaking work on this front is Sarah Stankorb, the journalist who wrote a book called Disobedient Women and also wrote a piece for Vice in 2021 that outlined in detail the kinds of abuse that people at Wilson's church have experienced and the ways that the church and Wilson have handled it. So to me, Sarah is the person who has cultivated not only a sense of what's happening in Moscow, Idaho with Wilson, but also built trust with survivors who have taken the courageous steps to share their stories.

As you can imagine, many of them are probably—and I'm not trying to speak for them, but my guess is—living in fear of retribution, living in fear of those who are not happy that they would be telling their experiences to CNN or any other journalist. I want to put that out there.

Moreover, if you're a subscriber, I have a couple of minutes at the end here reflecting on my interview with Pamela. I did enjoy speaking to her. She has, in my mind, done something that's important, and that is brought material on Christian nationalism and Doug Wilson to what I would call a mainstream network in CNN. There are people who are going to watch this documentary who have seen Pamela Brown's interview with Doug Wilson from a few months ago, where he talked about his relationship to Pete Hegseth and the new church plant that he is spearheading in Washington, DC, where Pete Hegseth attends church. This is the interview where Wilson said women are the kinds of people that people come out of. That got tens of millions of views. It was shared widely. We talked about it on this show and so on.

Pamela Brown has brought that to a mainstream audience, and that's important. One of the things that's difficult about that, and I'll talk about this in my subscriber content, is every time a mainstream network like CNN talks about Christian nationalism, they get pushback that they are somehow anti-American, anti-God, anti-Christian, anti-religion. You saw that in the run up to the 2024 election. People like Joy Reid and others on MSNBC were willing to go there, and it often led them into places of criticism from within their own network and from the general public. So I want to talk about that.

But you're also going to hear—and I think some of you are going to be very attuned to this—you're going to hear Pamela Brown talk about her experiences with people who are part of the CREC and Wilson aligned churches. And she has a much more, I think, positive understanding of at least her experiences with them than I would. And I think that that's part of the recipe of a journalist from a mainstream network interviewing people who are from a subculture that views the mainstream media as the enemy.

So I have thoughts on that. You're not going to agree with everything Pamela says here. I certainly did not, but I also feel like there's just so much value in bringing this to a network like CNN that doesn't always have this kind of content readily available. And if you don't believe me, if you're like, I don't know Brad, I'm not sure—well, the two experts that are in this hour long documentary are Julie Ingersoll, friend and colleague, and Dr. Matthew Taylor, friend and colleague and somebody who's on this show often, and who many of you are deeply familiar with. So they're the ones that provided the expert commentary, the expert insight, and to me, them being involved just added even more value to a project like this.

So here is my interview with Pamela Brown. If you're a subscriber, stick around, because I got some more to say about this at the end. Otherwise, thanks for being here. Go subscribe to our newsletter on Substack. Think about becoming a subscriber if you're not, and go subscribe to Reign of Error by Sarah Posner, who's doing this work every week alongside us. Thanks, y'all.

Brad: Welcome to Straight White American Jesus. I'm Brad Onishi, and joined today by an extra special guest, and that is Pamela Brown from CNN, the chief investigative correspondent and anchor at CNN. Just thrilled to have you, Pamela. So thanks for joining us.

Pamela Brown: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here and talk about this.

Brad: So you spent the last, I don't know how many months, doing investigative work on Doug Wilson and Christian nationalist churches and interviewing survivors. You have a new documentary coming out one week from today. It was supposed to be out already, but there's been blizzards and other things that have meant it's been rescheduled so it will come out, God willing, in about a week. And you know, as I thought about this, you interviewed Doug Wilson a couple months ago, an interview that, frankly, went viral. I think people who listen to this show are the kinds of folks that watched it, but it reached an audience that was probably never familiar with Wilson, had never heard of him, had never sort of understood his connections to Pete Hegseth.

And now you have a new documentary that not only digs back into Wilson's work, but also survivors of abuse in Christian nationalist spaces. What piqued your interest here? I'm just wondering, is this a world where you have personal experience? How did you get your radar on this topic?

Pamela: Well, I was raised Christian in Lexington, Kentucky, and from a very Christian family, and my kids go to a Christian school. But I've always been interested in faith and religion and different faiths, and how people have their deeply held beliefs, and why that is.

So one day—it was April of last year—my husband knows I'm just interested in learning about religion, and he gave me this essay, and he said, if you want to understand what Pete Hegseth and others might be doing in the administration, read this essay. And it was about Christian Reconstructionism, and it's basically this movement to reconstruct society in all different facets—within the home and within government and within schools—to make it more Christian, right, to reflect a very rigid view of the Bible.

And so I read this essay, and it really piqued my interest, and I wanted to dig deeper into it, because that's what I do as a journalist. And I found Doug Wilson through that interest, and just talking to some colleagues about wanting to dive into this. We sort of had one of those brainstorming sessions and we came across Doug Wilson, who leads the CREC network that Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary, is a part of. And Pete Hegseth moved to Tennessee to send his kids to one of the classical Christian schools within the association.

And so I thought that should be really interesting to go out there and talk to him and understand his worldview that's having such big influence on one of the most powerful Trump administration officials. So we reached out, and, you know, to his credit, he responded right away, but made clear he viewed us as being on the other side of the barrier. You know, I think he had some preconceived notions about quote unquote mainstream media, which, sadly, a lot of people do. And I just wish they could understand how we really operate.

But I told him over and over, I said, Look, this is not—I'm not coming in to do a hit piece. I'm not coming in to be adversarial. I think it's really important to understand your worldview and understand your church network that's having sort of a moment right now. It's becoming more mainstream. And so through some back and forth, we worked it out to fly out to Moscow, Idaho and sit down with him.

And his people were, to their credit, lovely to work with, and they created a space for us to interview him and some of the pastors within his network, and a couple that moved to Moscow to be part of the church network, because I really wanted to understand the whole gender role ideology and how that works in practice. And I interviewed a man who moved there from Africa.

So it was a very busy day. We had a flight out later that day because I had to do the overnight flight to get back for an important interview. So it was just like, wham bam, you know, in and out. But the conversation with Doug Wilson was fascinating on many levels. I remember getting to the car after and being like, Okay, we got to write down the key points, you know, of all these different things he said.

And I knew there was this one moment that was like, this is gonna get a lot of attention. I didn't fully realize how viral it would go. And it was the moment when I asked him about a woman's role in society, and he said women are the kind of people that people come out of, and just stopped right there. And there's a pause. And I honestly thought he would continue to talk, but he didn't. He just stopped.

There was a very authentic moment there, like my eyebrows are raised, and I was like, Wait a second, are we just vessels? And then he went on to explain, in his words, that, Oh, no, it's not like animals. You know, they also reproduce. That doesn't take any talent. But once the child is here, the mother is the CEO of the home, and it's such a beautiful responsibility. And we don't think women should throw their kids in daycare, as he put it.

And then I, of course, was like, Well, I'm out here. I'm a journalist working. I've got three kids. Like, how do you view that? And he was like, totally wrong, you know? So we had some very authentic exchanges, right? And I think because I went in there with an open mind and a curiosity, rather than a judgment or like, I'm gonna go in there and nail him. It was a very open conversation. And to me, that's how you should be as a journalist. So that's just my philosophy, right?

Brad: Yeah, yeah.

Pamela: So anyway, we put that out—it came out a few months after, because it takes time to put the story together—and it went viral. Indeed, tens of millions of views, many millions. And I've never had a story go so viral. Pete Hegseth retweeted it. It was a thing.

And then women reached out to me after that who had left similar church systems—his and others—and said, We want to have our story told too. And I thought, all right, let's do a documentary on this, because that was just supposed to be focused on him and his network and the influence on Hegseth and him getting closer to the seat of power, opening a church in DC. And I thought, we have to do more here. I felt a strong obligation to do more. And we did.

Brad: Well, that was going to be my next question. Why does this seem so important at the moment? And I think one answer you've already given is Wilson is mainstream. He's gone from Moscow, Idaho, an outpost in a rural part of the country, to the heart of DC, and that's happened over decades. But Wilson's mainstreaming via Hegseth and others is a huge story. But there's another story that I think the upcoming documentary really focuses on, and that's on survivors of abuse in Christian nationalist churches.

And you know, the churches that the women came from who are in the documentary have rigid, patriarchal theologies. Women must submit to their husbands. Younger sisters need to submit to older brothers. Pastors have authority over their flocks and everyone under them. I mean, for most of our listeners, they're familiar with these traditions and spaces. But would you just give us a basic idea of what you found in terms of what is expected of women in these church cultures?

Pamela: Yes, this is such an important part of the story, and I interviewed so many courageous women who are survivors, who say that they are deconstructing and they left these communities. And I learned how hard it is to leave these communities because they're so insular. And many of these women were brought up from a very young age. I mean, they were stay-at-home daughters. Their whole upbringing was about becoming a traditional wife and the stay-at-home mother. This is what they were taught.

They were taught that our community, our belief system, this Christian patriarchal theology—this is the right way. Everything else is bad and evil. You know, a lot of them—and again, it's not all a monolith, and I want to be clear—but for these women, they had abusive experiences, whether it's emotional abuse, physical abuse as a child with a parent, because there is a view that your parent is the earthly representation of God. And so disobedience against a parent, no matter how small, is disobedience against God.

And so I spoke to one woman who was physically abused by her parents repeatedly as a child. Spoke to a woman who was emotionally abused by her husband because of this pressure and this expectation to submit. And for these women, their whole upbringing—it can be taken to an abusive extreme, like you're not submitting enough. You need to be punished. Because if a woman is viewed in a certain scenario as not submissive enough to the husband, then that's disobedience to God. Because under the hierarchy, the husband has authority over the wife.

I interviewed a very courageous young woman who was sexually abused by her brother, because, again, in that hierarchy, the brother has authority over the sister. And she didn't understand that it was abuse at the time, because she was always told, you know, this is how it is, and your brother has the authority. And so she didn't—and she was never taught about her body. That was never part of the discussion. So she didn't understand it was sexual abuse for many years.

And so I felt compelled to share these survivors' stories and talk about what they went through when they were inside these communities and how difficult it was to leave and deconstruct. And many of them—it's a spectrum. Many of them say that they're actually closer to Jesus and closer in their Christian faith, and more devout than they were when they were in the community, because they feel like they could be themselves and develop their own relationship with Jesus, rather than be pressured and forced into these lifestyles where they felt like they had no sense of agency.

A lot of them talked about when they were in these communities, they developed health issues, panic attacks, chronic disease because of just that suppression of who they are, the expectations of them. And they said, Look, I know that there's going to be many families within these communities who are going to say, well, that's not my experience. My husband's not abusive, and this isn't really how it is. But they experienced it firsthand, and their whole thing is, look, it may not be everyone's experience, but the system and the hierarchy and the rigidity of it can lead to abuse. This is what can happen. And they're really sounding the alarm on that.

Brad: One of the things that seems to go together here is that if you have churches that have rigid patriarchal structures where men have unquestionable authority, then it's really difficult to hold them accountable. Who are the ones that are going to hold them accountable when their behavior turns abusive?

And then I think together with that, you have these women who are stay-at-home daughters who have been groomed from a young age, who have been married at age 18, 19, or 20. They don't know another system. They don't know another culture. And I guess, you know, for me, as I watched the documentary, and as I've done this work over the last decade, the difficulty in leaving is extreme.

How do you go elsewhere when you have no other resources, no other social life, no other window into the outside world, no other job training or occupational options? I mean, you know, it really constricts people. And so as I watched the documentary, I just was reminded once again of what kind of courage and bravery it takes for these survivors, not only to get on camera and talk to you, but also just to leave in the first place. Did you get that sense interacting with them? I mean, just to leave in the first place.

Pamela: Anytime you're shifting your identity, that's scary, in part because there's nothing that drives anxiety more than uncertainty. And that is like the pinnacle of uncertainty—going from this identity that was created for you since you were a child right into adulthood, and then basically recreating your identity. And first of all, having the wherewithal to understand this isn't right. Something's not right here. Paying attention to that little voice, and then taking the steps to get out. And maybe not being in a situation where you have the financial means to, or you're concerned you're going to lose custody of your children, or you're concerned you're going to lose all of your friends and family who are within that insular community.

It takes a tremendous amount of bravery and courage. And so I do commend the women who not only sort of figured out what was best for them in leaving, but being able to deconstruct and go through this process, which, as you know, Brad, does not happen overnight. It takes a long time. Many of them are still going through it. And then to speak out and use the microphone, because a lot of their friends and family are still within these communities. And so there's a risk there too.

I'm really in awe of their courage to talk. And you know, again, they were very clear—we understand this isn't everyone's experience here. Doug Wilson would argue that those men who are abusive, they are going against the preachings. And I asked them all about this. He said, If you are the victim of abuse, you should call the cops.

I asked the women about that, and they said, Well, you don't call the cops. You keep everything insular. It's about going to the church elders. And I spoke to a woman who is still in one of these Reformed Christian patriarchal communities who stayed to help domestic abuse victims—women—because she knows if she leaves that they won't seek help from the outside. And so she goes to the church elders with these women and tries to get them help. But sometimes she says she has to bring her husband because they won't take her seriously as a woman.

So it's really important to shine a spotlight on that. I think—

Brad: I'm reminded of a piece that my colleague Sarah Stankorb wrote back in 2021 for Vice. And you know, there was somebody from Wilson's church who said, you know, look, if a woman refuses to have sex with her husband, she could be excommunicated. And you know, that has always stuck with me, because if you can be excommunicated for simply saying to your husband, hey, I don't want to have sex right now, think about all the other things and all the other situations where, you know, authority and authoritarian leadership in the home is leveraged upon a wife, a mother, a woman, and so on.

And so, you know, I guess centering the survivors in the age of the Epstein files seems really, really important. I think sometimes the memes and the jokes and the endless online Epstein kind of discourse sometimes leaves behind the fact that there are people who are survivors of real abuse and are undergoing lifelong trauma. And that came through to me too when I watched the documentary in terms of the survivors you've interviewed and the people that are doing their best to find a healthy, balanced equilibrium after leaving these churches.

Pamela: Well, and it was interesting because several of the women are with their husbands still. Like, for some of them, it was like they left with their husband. The husband's also deconstructing, which was a dynamic I didn't actually expect. It's not just women who left their entire families behind. And of course, it gets complicated when you have kids and you have a woman who wants to leave, and then the man wants to stay in. They have kids, and that can lead to a whole host of issues.

But yeah, and we did actually talk about marital rape. I mean, I did ask Doug Wilson about—with this hierarchy and the structure and the idea that the husband has authority over the wife—and he says, I don't condone marital rape. He said that to me. And I brought that up to the women. I'm a journalist, you know, I bring up all sides, and I get responses.

And they said, Well, he can say that all he wants, but that's not the practice. That's not what the thinking is. And so I thought it was really important, because I got Doug Wilson's side of things. Obviously, with that interview, there was an extended interview online. But to hear some of the women who were once within his church network, or adjacent ones where they were influenced by his teachings, to hear what they had to say is such an important part of the whole story. Hence the name of the documentary.

Brad: It is. And one of the things that comes through, you know, in your interviews across denominations, across regions, is the theme of control. And, you know, my experience with Christian Reconstructionism, with Christian Dominionism, is there's an explanation that, look, God provided order to the earth. He provided the social hierarchy when it comes to human life.

And you hear some of the folks who are in the traditions in the documentary talk about this—oh, this has given me an anchor. It's given me certainty. It's given me stability. Like the one side of the coin is stability and certainty, and that comes from hierarchy. If you ask anyone who lives in a kingdom, they're like, We have a pretty certain social order. There's a king, and then everyone's below that king, and we kind of just go from there.

The flip side, though, is that when you interviewed these folks, these women, you know, across regions, across denominations, across churches, the thing that emerged was the primary interest, the primary motif is control. And I'm wondering if that surprised you. I'm wondering if that came through to you in ways that maybe, you know, we won't see in the documentary. Things that were on the cutting room floor, just in terms of the overwhelming drive to control a woman's life in every aspect.

Pamela: Well, there is a moment in there where I say there's a through line with all these different denominations I've been studying. And then one of the women jumps in and says, the through line is control. She said it herself. And certainly that is one of the takeaways.

It was interesting, though, and I've thought a lot about this. You know, I went to a community in Taylor, Texas that's within Doug Wilson's church network, and they were lovely. They have a tight knit community. They could not have been more generous and kind and open. And I give them great credit for letting us come film, because again, it's not easy. I mean, they probably thought, oh, mainstream media, you're coming in to do a hit job. But they did say, because of my interview with Doug Wilson—they felt like that would be fair—and so they let us come in.

But they, you know, seemed like they have a sense of community that you can't find in a lot of places in America, that people are craving. And the women I spoke to who are in these submissive relationships say, look, the burden's off me. He's the provider. He makes the executive decisions. I glorify the home. It's really liberating.

And so it was very interesting for me as a journalist to explore all sides of that, because the women who I talked to who are still in say that they're flourishing, that it's great, and this is the natural order. And again—and I think the women who I interviewed, who are survivors, would say, well, there's some scenarios. Maybe their husband just isn't—was actually a really good man, and isn't taking that authority to an abusive extreme.

And they were lovely. I'm not—I just want to reiterate that, like they were lovely, and I really am grateful to them for letting us in. But the survivors have seen the darker side of it. And I think understanding that darker side and understanding this moment we're in as a country is important, because these aren't just fringe communities that are just going off and living in the way that they believe is right. Doug Wilson and others want to impose Christianity on the country and reconstruct the country.

And you're seeing him now—you know, he's leading a prayer service at the Pentagon right now. There are many Americans who would applaud that, who say, Look, America's gotten so far away from Christian values. We need to get back to that. We need to get back to the Christian values.

There was a lot of nostalgia in some of the very conservative Christians I spoke to—we used to live by Christian values, and now we've gotten so far away, and it's a clown show. That was one way Doug Wilson put it. And so if we could just get back to that, we'll all be better off.

But then I kept going back to pluralism, and what about the people of different faiths and religious liberty and the First Amendment? And one person I interviewed in Taylor said, Well, you can't really live in harmony with pluralism if you have these competing worldviews. And they really believe it's a David versus Goliath. Secularism and non-secularism are basically two different religions, and one's going to win out. And they're David and the other side is Goliath, and they think that Goliath is bad for society, you know?

And so I lay that all out. And I think, I hope people will come to an understanding of this movement and dynamic in the country, whether they think it's good, bad or not. That's not for me to decide. It's just for me to lay it out for people to understand.

Brad: Yeah, you know, as somebody who spent way more time in his life than he ever thought he would reading Doug Wilson's books and writing about them—you know, pluralism is not something he's a fan of, and he often recalls this past Christian identity of the United States. And I think that's instilled in many of the folks who are in CREC churches and other conservative Reformed places.

It's hard, you know, for me—and this is, these are my words—to think about a United States in 2026 that has hundreds of millions of people who are not Christian in the way the CREC would imagine one needs to be a Christian to be the right kind of child of God. How do we live with each other? How do we live next to each other? How do we thrive together? And you know, it's clear in the documentary that there's no sense of wanting to do that other than our worldview is the correct one. The others—the Hindu, the Muslim, the agnostic, the atheist, the secular person—they have the wrong one, and we need to do something about that.

Pamela: And so, you know, I harped on that repeatedly, because as just a journalist with an open mind and talking to people about all different faiths and traveling the world, you know, you meet all kinds of people. And people who were born in Pakistan, and they have a deeply held view, and a lot of it was informed by where they were born.

And so I kept coming back to that, to the folks I was interviewing who were in these communities, like, how can you say you have it right and they're wrong and this is the one right way? And they said, Well, you know, we believe this is best for civilization, and we want to do it peacefully. We don't want to impose it—it has to be in the heart. We don't want to do it through violence, but through the gospel, through sharing.

But the bottom line is, they do want to impose it on American society—not in a violent way, they say, but they want to impose it. And I think that, to me, is a distinction. They don't want to just live it in their communities. Like I'm a practicing Christian in my community, I've created this community to practice my faith. It's no, we need to make this an official Christian nation. And they believe, and they have their arguments and their go-tos of why they believe America was founded as a Christian nation.

There's some debate among scholars about how much Christian values—you know, obviously, they played a big role in the founding of this country—but there's a debate in terms of how much the founders really wanted this to be a Christian country. And a lot of the historians we spoke to widely rejected the idea that they wanted to establish America as an official Christian nation. Otherwise they would have made that explicit in the Constitution. It's not in the Constitution.

Brad: And we've done that history on this show many times, and I'll refer folks later to those episodes. I want to get to—we've talked a lot about survivors, who are women, who are people who are married to men in these churches, who are part of these churches as wives. I want to talk about kids.

You went to a school in Taylor, and there's a couple of pretty clear images of a paddle at a school. And as a dad of preschool age kids, that was hard for me to watch, because here are folks in this classical Christian school that is a CREC school talking about spanking. I'm wondering how that came across to you as you were in the room with folks explaining why corporal punishment is actually what God wants and is a good thing.

Pamela: Yeah. So it's not something that happens in my kids' Christian school. But again, you know, my job as a journalist is to unpeel the layers and try to understand. And so I was really trying to understand the obedience and discipline aspect. A lot of this is authority, obedience, discipline. A lot of the structure is around that.

And so, yeah, I was really curious. Like, what do you do if a kid acts out of hand? Because there was this idea that if a child acts against an authority figure, like a parent or teacher, then that's an act of disobedience against God. What do you do?

And they were very open with me, and I'm grateful for that. And they said, Look, you know, nine times out of ten we try to solve it and remedy it. But if we can't get there, we'll call the parent and say, Do you want to come pick up your child and discipline your child, or do you want us to use the paddle here?

And so the teacher would administer the spanking with the paddle. And they said after—they said every time, in their words, I believe it was a beautiful reformation. Like we never leave the room with the child crying. Usually they come back around and are in harmony with God. And so that's how they put it.

And I put that out in the documentary, and I'm sure people will have some strong opinions on that. But they believe that's what the Bible dictates—that you're supposed to punish a child and use corporal punishment. As you know, Doug Wilson has not shied away from discussing that, and obedience and discipline is a big part of their philosophy.

Brad: Yeah, you know, there's a lot of distinctions between something like Christian Reconstructionism and Doug Wilson's brand of Christian nationalism from what we might call the old religious right, which is mentioned in the documentary—the anti-abortion movement of the 80s, the Paul Weyrichs, the Jerry Falwells, the Moral Majority.

But I think one of the through lines there, for those of us who grew up in this culture in the 80s and 90s, is corporal punishment was taught as godly, as a way of disciplining children. And you know, you can go back to James Dobson and Focus on the Family and others. But that's not a rupture or a distinction, that's a through line that's been there for quite a while.

Pamela: I think that's a really fair point. And something else I'm going to pick up on what you said is just how far back this goes. This isn't something that just came about overnight. This has been building, especially from the 60s, with a lot of the social change and the rapidity of that social change. I think a lot of people who are more on the conservative side, they didn't like what they were seeing in society and that social change. And so it drew them closer to these communities that do give more structure and certainty.

One of the women I spoke to who left said, it's the God of certainty. Like they give you this black and white blueprint for how to live, right? And that seemed to speed up—that interest in these communities seemed to speed up during COVID. Like, peak uncertainty. Like, oh my gosh, what are we doing here? And it was scary for a lot of people.

And the pastors I spoke to, including Doug Wilson, said they saw their numbers just skyrocket. He claims it's because of some of the COVID policies and the blue states and masking and vaccines and all of that. But also I think people were looking for that blueprint.

And then there's this dynamic in society right now where I think men feel a little bit lost. They're falling behind at school and when it comes to work, and they're just falling behind. And I think these communities, these Christian Orthodox patriarchal communities, give them a feeling of, oh, you're important. Here's the blueprint for how to live. Men are dominant. It's great to be a man. And that must be so appealing to men who feel lost, I imagine.

Brad: And men who like to control other people want to have the free pass to do that, right? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. These are my words. Everybody, everybody listening. These are Brad's words.

I mean, for me, as a man who was part of these cultures, I saw a lot of men around me when I was 18 and 19 and 20 who taught me to be masculine by thinking of myself as in control, as somebody who made others submit, you know? And I think for me, that's always stuck with me. We need to find a way as a society to appeal to men and boys and masculinity in a way that gives people a story and a sense of importance and value without—and this is, again, me talking—without them needing to resort to an authoritarian household or control over someone else's agency or the demand for submission.

And I'm really glad that you and the documentary focus on COVID as a moment. And I think that's something that's been a little bit under-covered. I agree with you, Brad. There's an equation to me that goes: the more societal change and flow, the more appeal fundamentalisms have to people. And I think COVID was one of those moments of like, everything is upside down. My world is just crumbled. I need certainty, I need order. I need hierarchy. Where can I find it? I can find it in a very conservative, Reformed church.

And I'm really glad that that comes out in the documentary. Did you expect that going in?

Pamela: I didn't expect it to be such a big deal in terms of being a pivotal moment for that movement. And I just realized time and time again that it was. And I don't think it's been covered—like, COVID was a huge turning point for these communities. And Doug Wilson admitted himself he was like, my views have become more mainstream without me moving at all. And I think COVID was really the catalyst for that in a large way, because we haven't really examined in society how much COVID has impacted us. We talk about it with our friends, maybe, but we haven't really looked at that holistically.

And I could tell you, when it comes to this Christian nationalist movement, it was a huge turning point.

I also think it's important to remember as we're having this discussion, Brad, because I've been getting some comments from people who are Christians who are getting the wrong idea about this documentary. It's not about persecuting Christians. Like I said, I'm raised Christian. My kids go to Christian School. I think I'm very much influenced and try to live my life by Christian values, right? I think that's important, and I respect people's deeply held beliefs. I do. I respect that.

And like I said, we all reach our worldview or deeply held beliefs for whatever reason. I don't know if I'd have the same views if I didn't grow up in Lexington, Kentucky, and my family is from Texas. I don't know, but that's where I am. It's not about Christianity as a religion. It's about the way that this movement—this idea of reconstructing society in America to be Christian—is aligning with this administration in an unprecedented way, with some of the things that they're doing with like Project 2025, and dismantling the education department and that kind of thing. It's a look at that.

Now, I think to understand the movement, you have to go and look at their beliefs, which we do in depth, and we talk to the survivors, as you point out. But it's also important to look at how it's shaping democracy right now.

Brad: I could not agree more. I think the way that I have put this to audiences around the country who've been sort of skeptical of me when I come to speak at their church is, look, loving God and loving your country. That's great. I'm not here to talk about that. If you think that loving your God means you get more of the country than everyone else, and you get to shape it in a way that imposes your faith on others, that now sounds to me not like the separation of church and state and the First Amendment and the pluralistic democracy we're meant to have.

It sounds like one group sitting around the American roundtable saying, Hey, I know we're at a round table here, but we're always going to have a higher chair than you and a higher position just because of our faith and our identity. That, to me, is Christian nationalism. This is not about Christianity in terms of, as you just said, persecuting anyone's religious tradition. It's about a religious tradition as it impinges on democracy, at least for me, that end goal of Christian authoritarianism.

Pamela: Yeah, and again, not all of them—it's hard to broaden that. I learned it's a cultural movement, and not everyone—it's not a monolith, necessarily. Not everyone has the exact same even type of faith under the Christian umbrella. There's Protestants, there's Pentecostals, there's Orthodox Catholics. But for some of those who have those Christian nationalist goals, it is what you just painted. It is that. And that's just a reality.

Brad: I want to ask you one more question about schools, just because I think there are people out there that are going to be hearing this. I have folks from my hometown who asked me, like, Hey, Brad, there's a new classical Christian school in town. Can you tell me anything about that?

And there's so much that seems so alluring about classical Christian schools. Hey, we're going to read classic texts. We're going to read Plato and Thomas Aquinas, and we're going to maybe learn some Latin and some Greek when we get to high school. And this seems like a really good, rooted way to do education. And as somebody who spent his life doing all of those things, hey, I like all of that.

I'm not sure everyone realizes, though, that most times when you see a classical Christian Academy, it's largely in the brand of the kind of schools that you were visiting and interviewing people at that are Reformed, CREC-attached. There's a real kind of branding of classical Christian schools as one thing, and then behind them is a theology that is often more in line with everything in the documentary. Did that come across to you at all? I'm not trying to characterize every classical Christian school out there. People are going to email me, I'm not doing that, but there is a trend.

Pamela: Well, they're all under an association. And I interviewed David Goodwin, who is the leader of that association. There's around, I think, like 500 of them across the country. And of course, they would have different ways of discipline. For example, pretty sure not all of them use a paddle to spank the children. They're all going to have their own ways of doing things.

But as David Goodwin put it, the overarching goal is to create deeply Christian children. So everything is taught through a biblical lens. And he says, We want to enculturate kids. We want to make them Christian kids, and we want them to go out and do things in society that will make this a more Christian nation. I mean, he didn't shy away from it because he believes that this country has gotten away from teaching kids about Christian values in the Bible, and that we would all be better off with these classical Christian schools and essentially doing away with public schools eventually.

Now he said there are certain circumstances, of course, where it's not a sin to send your child to a public school. But in his view, if you're a Christian parent, you don't really have justification to send your kid to a public school, because they're not teaching your child to be in fear and admonition of the Lord. That's what he said, and that's in the piece.

And so, you know, there are a lot of really interesting parts of the classical Christian school education. I think a lot of parents are drawn to it too, because the one in my neighborhood doesn't use technology. People love that. Oh, my God, that's what I mean. And yeah, they probably—I mean, very bright kids. I have friends who send their kids to some of these schools, and they're very bright kids and great kids. So no judgment there. But it is very much part of a system that is aligned with Doug Wilson and CREC to produce Christians who will go out and be kingdom builders.

Brad: Yeah, no, I think that's my point, and I appreciate you pointing that out. Like, if I'm a 31-year-old dad, 31-year-old mom, I have a five-year-old, or I'm a 41-year-old dad and I have a 12-year-old—hey, there's a school down the road here. They don't use technology. They're not on iPads all day. They're going to learn about classic Christian texts, classic books. This sounds kind of cool. This is neat. This is the kind of education I want my kids to have.

But I think a lot of times it's hard for those parents to see that these are, as you just said, CREC or Doug Wilson or Christian nationalist-aligned educational spaces that have a very certain ethos.

I know we need to wind down here. Let me ask you a big question before we go. You've done so much work on the interview with Wilson and now this documentary. What's one thing you want to make sure that people learn from watching this piece?

Pamela: I think people just need to understand the dynamic that's happening in their country, whether they like it or not. It's happening and it's happening fast, and it can reshape democracy in a way that we haven't seen.

I also hope, Brad, that it might give people an understanding of one another with different belief systems. That's important to me too, because the folks I interviewed in Taylor, Texas—like I said, they were lovely. And I interviewed the survivors as well. And I hope maybe people in these other communities might listen to the survivors and think, oh, wow, I need to listen to that. That's interesting. Or maybe I should pay close attention to what that survivor is saying. I'm kind of feeling the same way.

Like I'm tired of this environment we're in where we vilify everything, good guy, bad guy. I think if we just take a beat to try to understand one another and why we believe the way we believe things, we would have more respect for each other. And I hope I'm able to do that in some way in this documentary as well.

Brad: You know, one of the things I appreciate is the folks who are in the church in Tyler come across as people doing their best to make sense of human life in the 21st century. And you know, there's a lot of ways for me, personally, where I have come out of that culture, and I disagree strongly with where they've landed. But that doesn't mean they're bad people if you disagree with them. And that's what I hope people see—not everyone is a bad person.

Pamela: I've had many texts with the pastor since I left. And, you know, he'll send me these long texts with Bible verses. And he's been lovely. He's like, I hope we can continue this conversation over coffee, you know? And I'm like, that's really refreshing, that you're not adversarial, you're not trying to shove something down my throat. You want to approach it in a respectful way. And I think a lot of people can learn from his approach, even if you disagree with their belief system vehemently. That doesn't mean not everyone who believes it is a bad person. You shouldn't vilify them, and vice versa. That's my view.

Brad: Yeah, it's hard because—and again, these are my words, not yours, and I'm not trying to put these on you or the documentary. This is me talking now. It's hard when folks like that are so vehement that, you know, there's a recent interview between Tucker Carlson and Doug Wilson where Tucker basically asks about Muslims, and he says, is the problem with the Muslims in Europe the Muslims, or is it criminals? And Doug Wilson's basically like, well, Muslim and criminal are the same thing, you know?

Or when it comes to anti-LGBTQ rhetoric, or, you know, if somebody is an atheist, agnostic, humanist—there's a world where Wilson says, Look, I don't want them to be able to hold office. And he's using really derogatory terms about LGBTQ people in interviews. He did one with the New York Times.

And I just—I don't like the vilification, and I don't really want to be a part of that. That's not how I roll. You know what I mean?

Pamela: For sure. I actually have not seen that entire interview he did with Tucker. I need to go watch that. I have not—it's been a little bit crazy. But I do want to go watch that because maybe we need to include it in the documentary. I don't know.

Brad: It's a wild ride. You know, if you have a spare hour and a half and you really want to spend it that way, it's a wild ride.

But, Pamela, so thankful for your time. I'm thankful for the work you're doing here. I know that we discuss all the time on this show that it's difficult on mainstream networks to approach Christian nationalism, because you're always going to get people who think, as you've said today, you're attacking Christianity, you're attacking God, you hate America. And that's clearly not the case.

Pamela: Yeah. And some people will never—no matter what, they already have their preconceived notions, and they're going to think what they're going to think. And there's nothing I can do about that. All I can say is that's not what this is.

Now, there are plenty of critics in the documentary, Brad, who have varying viewpoints. You know, some people believe this is politics wrapped in religion. It's using religion to cloak the politics. We have varying viewpoints. You know, that's my job to put that out there. I'm not taking a position, though, by putting any viewpoint out there. But people don't really—this day and age of polarization—people don't understand that, and they have their preconceived notions of mainstream media.

But all I can do is seek the truth, tell the truth and let people decide for themselves what they want to believe.

So barring unforeseen breaking news and other things, the documentary should come out in a week. Can you tell us—we can find that on CNN. Is it going to go to streaming as well? Are there other places?

Yes. So it'll air, hopefully, March 8, 8pm ET on CNN linear. Linear means, like your television, if you still have it. And if not, it'll go up on CNN All Access, I believe, the next day. So you could find it there—you have to get a subscription, but you can find it there on All Access.

I really hope people watch. I hope it sparks discussion. And I hope that, you know—I mean, one person told me early in my career, Brad, you know, if you're not stirring the pot and spurring discussion, you're not really doing your job. And so that's sort of how I look at this project, because it is a hot button issue, and people get real sensitive about it. But that's not the point. It's to step back to look at this movement that's impacting America right now, in the moment we're in, and a very consequential moment.

Brad: Well, and our two favorites are in there—two friends of the show, two dear friends of mine, Matt Taylor and Julie Ingersoll. So you'll get to see them, and they're amazing as always—articulate, insightful, unflinching. So you know they are worth the price of admission. Always, friends.

All right. Y'all, thanks for being here. We will catch you next time.

Pamela: Thanks, Brad.

Brad: All right.